{"id":400278,"date":"2005-04-25T22:00:00","date_gmt":"2005-04-25T22:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/?p=400278"},"modified":"2005-04-25T22:00:00","modified_gmt":"2005-04-25T22:00:00","slug":"csak-az-apro-kezdemenyezesek-lehetnek-hatekonyak","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/interju\/csak-az-apro-kezdemenyezesek-lehetnek-hatekonyak\/","title":{"rendered":"\u201dOnly the small emerging initiatives can be effective\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"
\r\n\r\n\r\n
At the beginning of this month, Maria Hlavajova, Cl\u00e9mentine Deliss, Joanna Mytkowska and Charles Esche were the invited participants of the conference \u201dShifting\r\nParameters – Remarks on the Institutional\u201d, initiated by L\u00edvia P\u00e1ldi, and held in the Ludwig Museum, Budapest.
We conversed with Maria Hlavajova, artistic director of BAK:\r\nbasis voor actuele kunst, Utrecht, on this occasion. (N.E.)<\/div>\r\n\r\n

 
\r\n\r\n

\r\n\r\n\"\"<\/a>\r\n<\/div>\r\n\r\n

When one follows your curatorial work, it becomes apparent that you continuously initiate or take part in different projects that integrate Eastern European art\r\npractices into a wider international context. Is Eastern European art something that still requires efforts to be integrated? Why did you reject the use of the term \u201cEastern\r\nEuropean\u201d in your talk yesterday?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

The whole concept of Eastern European art is extremely problematic. I would use this between quotation marks, because the whole terminology is simply wrong. I do not\r\nthink the phenomenon of Eastern European art exists: it is something we created after 1989. I mean, if you remember, before 1989 there was no communication between\r\nBratislava and Warsaw, or Bratislava and Budapest unless it was politically forced. It started after that time, almost as a marketing strategy to get the area recognised. I do not\r\nthink that art produced in the former Socialist bloc is being sufficiently integrated. If you ask me who is to blame for this, I would say we, ourselves. For a couple of reasons:\r\ninitially we waited, and thought we should be recognised, discovered \u2013 instead of taking our own initiative. And when it did not happen, we assumed a kind of victimized\r\nposition, like we are victims of the past system, of globalisation, etc., instead of taking a proactive step.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Do you think there is no common base in this respect? A shared background?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

No, I don\u2019t think there ever was. What we had was the same totalitarian regime for forty years\u2026<\/p>\r\n\r\n

And it influenced a lot of things, indeed, even the contemporary way of how we think about certain things\u2026<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

The fact of isolation influenced it. But I do not think of it as a specifically post-Communist artistic practice. I don\u2019t think something like that exists. What we have in\r\ncommon is forty years of isolation, and an experience with a totalitarian regime, but I do not believe there is a very particular narrative or very similar post-Communist artistic\r\npractice. I have never worked with so-called Eastern European art. I don\u2019t know what it is. We need to de-mythologize the term and recognise that there are good artists and\r\nnot as good artists, good curators and not as good curators, and we account for every single situation, whether it is in the West, whether in the East, in the Middle East or in\r\nSouth Africa. If we manage to accept this mental shift \u2013 that it is not the question whether someone comes from the East or the West, but it is about good artists and less good\r\nartists, or about good initiatives and less good initiatives \u2013 then the whole situation will suddenly change.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

If we go back to the yesterday\u2019s topic, the lack of a well-functioning institutional system here requires other ways for curators to make art products visible from\r\noutside\u2026<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

That is correct, but it is not a typical feature of Central\/Eastern Europe. If you look at Ljubljana, they have an enormously good institutional infrastructure that is\r\ninternationally connected. In Budapest there is a huge number of institutions; none of the post-Communist countries has a Ludwig Museum, and you would assume that it is\r\npart of an international network. There isn\u2019t such an international collection like this, in, e.g., Slovakia; there is no international collection based on Western European\r\nproduction in Prague, nor in Ljubljana. Why wouldn\u2019t you take this as a possibility to be used?<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Probably because its size is not proportional to its active role in the current scene\u2026<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

Yes, the institutional structure is a different story from what we just discussed about the region. I do think there is excellent production in Central and Eastern Europe, but\r\nthe system and the circumstances in which production is done is different from Western European standards. That is the main discrepancy. If you like, this is something that\r\nconnects Central and Eastern Europe. But it is not a specific artistic practice, just a different condition in which this practice takes place.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

How do you involve artists coming from this region in your projects?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

I do work with them a lot, but I never call them Eastern European artists. It is Roman Ondak, who lives and works in Bratislava, Pavel Althamer, who lives and works in\r\nWarsaw, and so on, but they are not categorised as artists representing the region. If I work with Willem de Rooij, e.g., I don\u2019t call him a Western European artist. So long as we\r\nall do not have this kind of knowledge, nothing will change; there will be no fluent collaboration.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Let\u2019s look at it from the side of the curators\u2019 career. Yours is quite an exceptional one regarding the fact that you have managed to be present internationally and at the\r\nsame time, you haven\u2019t lost your connection with this region. Is the fact that this kind of career is still unusual here caused by the lack of possibilities, or it is a question of\r\npersonal vocation and efforts?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

It has to do with personal vocation, personal ambition in a way. At the very beginning of my work, I was trying to figure out ways how these two can be connected.\r\nCurators coming from the West will not work with artists from this region until they know them intimately. And this is an advantage, that I know intimately this field, because I\r\nworked here for twelve years, not exclusively in Slovakia, but in Central\/Eastern Europe. I work in a Western European context, so I have the capacity to connect them. One\r\nshould not wait for possibilities, but has to create those possibilities instead. Nothing comes for granted; nobody will come to offer you a job \u2013 it is not that way. I moved to\r\nthe Netherlands for personal reasons; it was not because I was offered an excellent job. Just to the contrary. And frankly, at the time I thought I had done so many projects that\r\nwere appreciated, I should be asked. But it took me years to find a job there. Previously I had a professorship in New York, curated Manifesta 3, and still nobody was interested.\r\nIt made me believe that there are no possibilities unless we create them ourselves.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

If someone looks at your curriculum, it seems like a straight line up. Very consciously planned.<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

It is great if it looks like that\u2026 but honestly, when I started to work in Utrecht, it was a place that was not known internationally and many people wondered what I was\r\ngoing to do with it. On the other hand, if something doesn\u2019t function well, then in that case you cannot fail \u2013 it can only be better. I dare to say that today \r\nBAK<\/b><\/a> in the Netherlands is one of the most challenging institutions. I have a different kind of experience, which is not so common there, I also\r\nhave a wider horizon and I am able to bring there artists nobody knows yet, but, again, I would never present them as Eastern or Central Europeans \u2013 there would be an\r\nenormous opposition to it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

The predecessor of BAK was planned to be a forum for local artists. Your presence there altered this situation towards a more international program. Didn\u2019t it create\r\nconflicts? Weren\u2019t you blamed that you occupied the place and excluded the local scene?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

It might be seen as a contradiction, and initially it was. There was a huge opposition \u2013 it was viewed as a takeover; the local artists felt like they suddenly lost a platform.\r\n<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Did they?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

No, they didn\u2019t. I tried to argue a number of times very loudly, that the distinction between international and local has to be diminished on some level (without losing the\r\nspecificity), because if we keep it, we create a hierarchy, putting first the international and only in second place the local. We have to recognise the world as intrinsically\r\ninternational. It takes many years to be part of the international exchange, but if we all admit that we want to be part of this, the hierarchy might disappear. Of course, there\r\nare artists locally whom I wouldn\u2019t want to exhibit, and I also don\u2019t feel I am obliged to make one show a year of Utrecht artists, and I never do it. But there are other ways of\r\nhow to involve people working in the city, into the cultural exchange.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Could you mention some of them?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

They can be very different things. For instance, we do lots of lectures and talks, and we regularly invite people, not necessarily to speak on the stage, but to have\r\nconversations, so that the speaker and audience are not separated, but everybody is involved. The setting is very different from the one yesterday, where we had the podium\r\nand the audience on the other side \u2013 you can dismiss these, and then everybody will be at the same level. Forget about a microphone \u2013 the one who has it has an emphasised\r\nposition over the others, who do not. It again creates hierarchy. You can work with these situations in a different way. We are very careful about how we archive our activity. We\r\nare in connection with the local television in Utrecht, and we keep developing films about artists who live and work there, because we want to have evidence of what is\r\nhappening. These films remain in our archive; anybody can have a look at them \u2013 it is really professional documentation. So these are just examples of the methods of how we\r\ndo this, but these are all directed towards overcoming this distinction.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Can we speak about the local audience there? Are they also involved?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

The question of audience in the Netherlands is a little bit more complicated. I live in Amsterdam, and work in Utrecht, a city with 300,000 inhabitants, really small, but the\r\nprovince has an enormous advantage over the centre, so to speak, because it allows you to concentrate very differently: sometimes we close the door and do not have any\r\nexhibition, if we have to concentrate on something else. People notice, when we want them to be involved and this allows different kinds of devotion to things. But the cities in\r\nthe Netherlands are so connected, are so close to each other \u2013 they operate as one big city. We could say that the local audience is the Dutch audience. As we are a very small\r\ninstitution working in a province actually, we thought we needed to invent other ways of encountering our audience. It shouldn\u2019t mean only those people who physically enter\r\nthe place, but all people that in one way or another encounter our activities \u2013 like those who read our books. We decided not to publish invitations \u2013 we rather publish small\r\nbooks instead \u2013 three thousand for each exhibition, and we send them to people. It is about how you can create the knowledge about what are you doing, without expecting\r\neveryone to come to see.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

How many of you work at BAK actually?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

It is also important to mention that with BAK \u2013 as the name says \u2013 we intended to create a basis, a base: the minimum necessary structure. It does not mean we think in\r\nsmall projects; on the contrary, we make large-scale projects, which far exceed our primary structural yearly subsidy. We only have three employees, then whenever there is a\r\nbigger project going on, the institution has the capacity to \u201cswell\u201d, since we have a pool of people we work with regularly, but they only come when there is work. And when\r\nthe project is over, it shrinks again into the minimum. And it is fantastic, because you do not have the burden of carrying always a large institution that often runs the risk of\r\nconsuming itself. It is not just about financial sustainability, but even more importantly, people are especially motivated this way. When they work with us for one year, or two\r\nweeks \u2013 it doesn\u2019t really matter, it depends on the project \u2013 they become motivated, and the next time we do work with them again \u2013 it is a really inspiring method of working.\r\n<\/p>\r\n\r\n

You are \u2013 together with Kathrin Rhomberg \u2013 the programme directors of Tranzit<\/b><\/a>, which is a strange floating structure, very flexible and productive, a real novelty here in the region. It has an exceptional possibility and freedom, and it transmits\r\nthis possibility and this freedom towards others. Would it be a certain manifestation of the ideal institution?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

In this respect, it is an ideal institution. The word Tranzit<\/i> expresses cross-stepping through space and time. And it is ideal also in the sense of how lively it is,\r\nbut it is also built into the structure that it is going to end one day. It should not stay forever. Tranzit <\/i>is designed as a kind of mobile unit to transgress a certain time,\r\na certain period, and it can end in the moment when we think it is no longer necessary.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Who decides on this?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

There are a couple of levels of decision-making. Of course, it is crucial to consider the fact that there is a corporate body behind the whole thing, Erste Bank. Run by very\r\nvery enlightened people, capable of understanding the new practices we are engaging in, and that, e.g., thinking can be supported. It is a very unique feature. Going back to the\r\nstructure: Kathrin Rhomberg and me: we are the programme directors; we initiated the project. At this moment it has three branches: one in Bratislava, one in Vienna, one in\r\nPrague, and they all reflect on what is needed in those places. So they decide, those people who are aware of what is needed locally. We are talking about Boris Ondreicka in\r\nBratislava, Vit Havranek in Prague and Georg Sch\u00f6lhammer in Vienna. It is an autonomous structure, not hierarchised \u2013 a collective who believe and trust in each other. The\r\ndecision-making takes place in negotiations in the collective.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Do these three units operate differently according to the given artistic and institutional field? <\/i> <\/p>\r\n\r\n

Yes, it is absolutely unique for each country. They very sensitively analyse what is going on locally, and try to address the lack. <\/p>\r\n\r\n

Do you evaluate the projects together as well? <\/i> <\/p>\r\n\r\n

We discuss the projects, but we entrust in people doing them locally. You know, I lived and worked in Bratislava for many years, but I don\u2019t understand any longer the\r\nscene in a precise way. The role of Kathrin and me is more to provide a support structure in the international network. So the discussions about the projects are to understand\r\neach other more deeply, rather than to say that this is not good. People involved in Tranzit <\/i>in Bratislava, Prague and Vienna understand much better what is needed\r\nlocally than we can ever imagine.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Tranzit claims to support individuals and small initiations instead of big institutions and giant projects. What is your personal relation to this way of operating?<\/i>\r\n<\/p>\r\n\r\n

I don\u2019t believe in big institutions. They are not fast enough to understand what is happening these days in the art world. But I do believe in individuals. I think this is the\r\nproblem with Hungary, as well. Budapest has a number of huge institutions and \u2013 it is absolutely my personal opinion \u2013 they are disconnected from what is happening\r\ninternationally. And I do think so because Budapest seems not to have its own story. I remember when I arrived to Budapest for the first time. I met lots of people and heard\r\nlots of conflicting stories. And you are not able to make your own story in such a short time\u2026<\/p>\r\n\r\n

But it is quite impossible if you do not have previous knowledge and your time is limited. I don\u2019t think this would happen differently elsewhere.<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

This is true. But in other countries, usually there are people who are internationally connected and have understanding of both \u2013 if we simplify it \u2013 the local and the\r\ninternational.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

As I see it, it is not about the lack of proper histories, but about the ability of how can we make them visible and understandable \u2013 in a word, how we communicate\r\nthem.<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

It is the matter of translation. An internationally working curator has a couple of days, probably a couple of weeks to learn about local scenes. S\/he has no capacity to\r\nunderstand all the idiosyncrasy of the scene. There is really no way, unless we reset the whole system!<\/p>\r\n\r\n

What kind of abilities are needed or should be developed to match this role, the role of a moderator or mediator?<\/i> <\/p>\r\n\r\n

I wish I would know a recipe. But if you insist, I would envision a group of knowledgeable personalities, artists, public intellectuals, writers, curators \u2013 with a precise\r\nnarrative of interesting positions and artistic practices in Budapest. Their goal would be to intellectually feed the scene, while at the same time connecting to international\r\nnetworks. How about engaging international practitioners in what is happening in Budapest?<\/p>\r\n\r\n

You were talking about Hungary\u2019s weak presence on the international scene. This is the point when I have to ask how you see the future of Tranzit? I am especially\r\ninterested about the possibility of extending it to Hungary as well.<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

It would indeed be very interesting.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

You are very diplomatic\u2026<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

I don\u2019t know whether I am diplomatic, but I mentioned in the beginning that it is a very complex process, for which circumstances need to be ready. But I think there is an\r\nimmense need for it. Especially to help to facilitate the process of getting connected, but also the local scene maybe needs to negotiate in that story, that narrative I have\r\nalready mentioned.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Are you interested?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

I am extremely interested. And I tried very many times, but somehow I did not find those points that I would like to show up or work with. Not yet.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

You were one of the curators of Manifesta 3 in Ljubljana in 2000. There was no Hungarian artwork selected then. Did you research here previously? Was it again the\r\nquestion of accessibility to certain product?<\/i><\/p>\r\n\r\n

No, I could have access quite easily. I made several studio visits here, but \u2013 and it is not a judgment about the scene \u2013 I did not find artistic positions at that time relevant\r\nfrom the point of view of my interest.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Which would be? <\/i> <\/p>\r\n\r\n

I am interested in critical artistic practice, some call it political art, but it is a very confusing term for the reason that very often, critical artistic practice is confused with\r\nartistic practices documenting political events. Probably I did not go too far in this research here, but I could not manage to find such practices.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

They are not really around institutions. It may be right that we have several institutions, but they are probably not the places where these practices gain visibility.<\/i>\r\n<\/p>\r\n\r\n

What I do miss in Hungary is production places. Like Cl\u00e9mentine said yesterday, next to the elephant, there needs to be a mouse. I am missing those mice in a way. It is\r\nfine having a place like the Ludwig Museum, but the productive energy is in the smaller projects. And you really have to shape the communication (and I don\u2019t mean\r\nmarketing!) about them. It is something we usually forget, because we are so exhausted doing the project, that there is no creative energy left to develop strategies around\r\nhow we let people know about them. There are possibilities to invite international people, who you think could be potentially important players. Invite them to give a talk and\r\ndon\u2019t let them sit in a coffee house during the day, but bring them to different places, artists\u2019 studios, etc. This is the way. And it is not about money. Sometimes you just have\r\nto phone someone and say: listen, we really respect what you are doing; we would like to invite you here to get to know things and share your thoughts on them. The one-to-\r\none operation is the only thing that helps. Institutions are busy with securing their existence. Only the small emerging initiatives can be effective: they don\u2019t wait until they\r\ncan take the job of a director, but acting instead, showing that there are other possibilities. Really, there are as many possibilities as you create.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Budapest, 2.04.2005<\/p>\r\n\r\n

Interviewed by Nikolett Er\u0151ss<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/div>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

At the beginning of this month, Maria Hlavajova, Cl\u00e9mentine Deliss, Joanna Mytkowska and Charles Esche were the invited participants of the conference \u201dShifting Parameters – Remarks on the Institutional\u201d, initiated by L\u00edvia P\u00e1ldi, and held in the Ludwig Museum, Budapest. We conversed with Maria Hlavajova, artistic director of BAK: basis voor actuele kunst, Utrecht, on […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":630276,"parent":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[5],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-400278","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-interju"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/400278","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=400278"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/400278\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/630276"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=400278"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=400278"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/exindex.hu\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=400278"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}